00:00:14: Ladies and gentlemen, boys and girls welcome back to the Sting Aligned podcast.

00:00:19: You are seeing... what I believe is the fourth episode of this season, and you are seeing a new format.

00:00:27: Those who used to the podcast have been listeners for awhile probably were use that format on Zoom where we bring guests in from around the world at PI talk about their specialty how it fits with the chiropractors doing What they're Doing.

00:00:42: This Season We're doing something different if you recall last couple episodes going out into field, going to Chiropractor's offices particularly those less than ten years or so in practice, to talk about sort of the early days and stuff they wished that had known back when there were getting started.

00:01:00: So without any further ado today we are joined by Dr.

00:01:04: Andrew Smith.

00:01:05: Dr.

00:01:05: Smith is kind of a whole package.

00:01:10: uh...in terms of chiropractors I am continue-to be an awe as i really mean this.

00:01:19: what you do here, both here physically in this office but also showing up to continuing education.

00:01:27: Being a huge supporter of I feel like me and my firm... You're always there cheering on when we are doing Continuing Ed stuff But also new mom And then working coming back in practice Working with your father Dr.

00:01:47: Smith, welcome to the podcast.

00:01:48: Thank

00:01:48: you so much for having

00:01:49: me.

00:01:49: thank you So much for being here.

00:01:51: I gave you quite introduction but i do want You To sort of talk as if i don't know you okay?

00:01:57: And tell Me who The hell you are

00:01:58: Who the Hell am i?

00:01:59: who

00:01:59: the hell Are you?

00:02:00: um

00:02:01: thank you so Much For Having me.

00:02:02: uh As alex said i Am A new mom.

00:02:04: i just had A baby four and a half Months ago.

00:02:07: i've Been in Practice Here In lamerada for Little Over ten Years.

00:02:12: i have a Little different experience than a lot of people because I've been in practice with my dad the entire time he's been in this community Thirty.

00:02:19: it'll be thirty nine years.

00:02:20: This year, so I grew up in chiropractic.

00:02:22: I started working at The clinic when I was sixteen-years old work on the front desk working to back.

00:02:27: So if i've been In every position in the clinic and we done personal injury whole Time My background is athletics?

00:02:34: So I like taking People that are hurt and making them better.

00:02:38: as you do in sport You Do in Personal injury right.

00:02:41: so It's A really fun.

00:02:43: It's a fun type of patient to work with because you take them from a place of, fear pain suffering whatever that may be and most the time You can get them back too living their normal full life.

00:02:57: And it is very fulfilling.

00:03:00: I

00:03:02: really enjoy parallel because I don't think i've ever thought of it that way.

00:03:06: but a lot of times in sports certainly with competitive athletes they get themselves injured and then are suffering a loss in their activities of daily living vis-a-vis there's sport um,and it becomes the role of their provider you to get them back doing that thing as quickly as possible.

00:03:24: absolutely yeah.

00:03:26: very similar too.

00:03:27: The role of a chiropractor in a PI case where uh...the injury maybe is less Self-inflicted But but nonetheless their activities of daily living are just as affected.

00:03:40: and we were talking before.

00:03:42: We started today about how PI is both really lucrative And I think everybody kind of fundamentally knows that it's really lucative, but iiink a lot Of people starting out might maybe don't know About How Rewarding or fulfilling It Is.

00:03:56: Speak to That A little bit?

00:03:58: I mean A pure at heart profession that are just trying to get people better.

00:04:05: and then if That's really your motivation, the PI is a home for you but speak To your own experience on them.

00:04:12: I think kind of what she said it Is there?

00:04:14: There's a Really fulfilling part of that.

00:04:17: You take someone who has unfortunately been entered into motor vehicle accident.

00:04:21: Not their fault they're in pain Their life is affected.

00:04:25: Your as a chiropractor you're Kind Of uniquely positioned like quarterback that care and they're you are the one of their seeing all time.

00:04:35: so your building interpersonal relationships, your building a strong rapport.

00:04:38: Your creating an environment thats helping them with healing then also getting to providers if need seek outside care or get additional imaging.

00:04:47: youre the ones who gets to coordinate it.

00:04:48: I think i enjoy interdisciplinary communication the good attorneys that I can have a conversation with and i can call, talk to them about their case.

00:05:02: And they actually know what's going on in this case too because sometimes it is not always the case.

00:05:06: Does It Not?

00:05:07: Yeah!

00:05:07: Your attorney says like...I don't Know!

00:05:11: Well In some cases but anyway.. I like seeing them coming from a place of pain then usually leaving in a successful position and think myself as being the conduit for healing

00:05:26: in that space.

00:05:27: Yeah, I you are the conduit to healing and that's based.

00:05:31: so The reason why we've changed the format of podcast this season And again with something We talked about a minute ago is because i think Well, I don't think I heard So many times from young-ish chiropractors be You know?

00:05:47: I did ten chiropractor, you know Ten pi cases right out of Chiropractic College.

00:05:52: I got screwed ten different ways Uh, and by the end I was just like you know what?

00:05:57: Not for me.

00:05:58: I'll leave PI to somebody else.

00:06:00: And i heard this story over-and-over again... ...And I was getting really disheartened!

00:06:04: Like why would a chiropractor not want take on PI?

00:06:07: A it's super lucrative.. ..And B its super rewarding.

00:06:10: It sort of totally goes to the niche Of WHY most Chiropractors went into Chiropractic in The first place is To help heal people with their hands In non-narcotic, non-steroidal, nonsurgical way.

00:06:22: Which PI in a nutshell for like most cases, right?

00:06:26: Why they would then swear off of

00:06:28: P.I.,

00:06:30: you know Like A bad date kind of situation and I get it.

00:06:34: i mean You've heard that too Right?

00:06:35: yeah like I dated ten dudes They were all crap on done with.

00:06:39: ya know It's the same concept.

00:06:40: She was like well okay but Maybe just if I didn't find The one yet.

00:06:44: And That is kinda Same Concept With PI In my opinion Is there are good Practitioners out There both chiropractors and PI attorneys in medical doctors.

00:06:53: And it's like finding the right team.

00:06:56: that then makes your experience really, really positive both lucratively and also just holistically moving forward.

00:07:04: so I want you to speak Young doctors who are considering PI or hopeful about PI but don't want to step on the landmines that those That came before them may have stepped on and so, The hope is maybe this will serve as a way of people sidestepping.

00:07:24: I mean what immediately comes to mind when i say early days?

00:07:28: Landmine's PI.

00:07:30: So I Have A slightly different experience because I did have my dad As someone Who had some other instances where those landmines that we talk about, but that doesn't mean I didn't have any of my own.

00:07:42: We... Have had.

00:07:45: very rarely do we have a case that doesn' turn out or we have difficulty with the attorney and i think part of that is you have to be confident enough to have a conversation with them not afraid to like stand your ground um and then know if something feels funny off-the bat it's probably going to be funny.

00:08:06: uh and using those that intuition, those how would you describe it?

00:08:12: Like your spidey senses.

00:08:14: I can't think of the other one but I'm in kid mode a little bit.

00:08:16: yeah and your mom's senses are this similar concept.

00:08:21: let's go into that though deep dive into what kinds things have set off the spideysenses.

00:08:26: um i've had to add.

00:08:30: I was in practice maybe like two years or so and it was an attorney that we didn't know.

00:08:35: And it was a young woman, um...young women with pleasant-it was very straightforward Like at rear end collision clear liability nothing you know Nothing complex jumping out from the case perspective and she did A normal course of care.

00:08:52: The bill was reasonable.

00:08:53: We had reports, soap notes everything sent over to the attorney and maybe it was like a year had gone by, reached out.

00:09:03: Didn't get a response.

00:09:06: Another month went by I reached out didn't get our response And we were like this is a little... This feels wrong.

00:09:11: So we ended up contacting the patient.

00:09:13: The patients are your friends.

00:09:15: You build their rapport with them.

00:09:16: as doctor Usually you can call him up to have conversation.

00:09:22: That patient said they received payment however many months prior and we let her know that the attorney didn't pay any

00:09:32: of... You hadn't received payment.

00:09:33: Yeah, We had not receive a payment with assigned lien signed by the Attorney and dated And With The Patient as well.

00:09:40: so when we went to the Attorney saying like what happened they were dishonest I'm pretty sure They ended up making the patient like pay for their bill which is Not good.

00:09:59: This is exactly what I'm talking about.

00:10:02: Yeah, this is a way that most people wouldn't even think That they could be screwed like you wouldn't Even conceive of.

00:10:10: Like he did everything right in his case.

00:10:12: You got the lien signed but it's just-that's.

00:10:15: The number one thing that a lot of times they don't do Is get the lien sign by the attorney?

00:10:19: He Did that yeah if had to sign lien Good care, good treatment.

00:10:24: Got the notes in everything on time building record Everything was build reasonable and then radio silence which happens by The way we're in the negotiation.

00:10:32: sometimes if a case goes into litigation there's A period of lull And In our office We get a call from a chiropractors Office every so often going hey update On whatever case when you go oh that one is inlet or Oh That ones where ever.

00:10:44: yeah Totally normal.

00:10:46: Yeah, right But when you go radio silence and then the attorney goes radio silence And then you have to reach out to the client Go with what the heck happened?

00:10:52: And they go.

00:10:53: oh I don't understand what you're talking about.

00:10:54: I got my money months ago.

00:10:56: I thought this was all closed.

00:10:57: yeah What um yeah This is exactly what i'm talking About.

00:11:02: so how decide step those sorts of issues.

00:11:06: In retrospect My my Attorney brain Is like okay well what could You Have done in that situation?

00:11:13: one thing is to send a bill, mm-hmm.

00:11:16: To the clients at the end of care?

00:11:18: Mm-hmm.

00:11:19: We like.

00:11:19: we like it.

00:11:20: when they sent a bill every so often quarterly or something just to let The patient know how much.

00:11:24: hey you

00:11:25: still have this money.

00:11:26: Yeah You

00:11:26: still owe them every quarter and they can see that amount going up and up enough.

00:11:30: one Of the reasons That's awesome by the way thick sometimes at the End of the case They feign.

00:11:35: How could It be forty five hundred dollars they have?

00:11:38: no I keep with.

00:11:40: And if the reason Is because they had No idea what their bill has been all along Going along three times a week for six months and they're like, how could that cost this much money?

00:11:49: It's like what do you mean.

00:11:50: How can it costs us?

00:11:51: so helping them receive the bill as its going up is good for that purpose but also As you continue to send this bill after they stop care They realize it hasn't been paid.

00:12:02: I mean, you can do the same thing with it.

00:12:03: With the attorney's office.

00:12:04: You let them know and you don't have a diary every for three months six months like hey We're still here.

00:12:09: what's going on in this case?

00:12:10: Oh, it's all pending.

00:12:10: that's fine no worries Yeah.

00:12:13: So that's one thing that we advise often is send the client to bill And also touch base with the PI Attorney.

00:12:18: if your working with a conscientious PI Attorney you'll hear from them ever so often letting you Know What The Heck Is Going On.

00:12:25: But you Can Also Reach Out People Get Busy.

00:12:27: i Like Understand yeah but That's It.

00:12:30: And then at the end, when you found out that what had happened here... You have rights there.

00:12:37: I mean certainly could reach up to the PI attorney and go pay me or i'll take you to small claims court because I have a lien signed by YOU saying you will pay ME when this case resolves.

00:12:48: AND you didn't!

00:12:50: Right?

00:12:51: I think alot of chiropractors don't realize how much power is in that lien.

00:12:55: An attorney who signs a lien is signing a contract.

00:12:58: If they breach that contract, there's not a lot they can say to get out of it.

00:13:02: I mean i've helped a lot of chiropractors go through small claims court against shady PI attorneys and They almost always win.

00:13:09: because if you have assigned lien That's the contract

00:13:11: yeah?

00:13:12: If You Have your soap notes in Your medical records.

00:13:16: that's proof that you that you Substantially complied with The terms of the contracts.

00:13:21: so you did what you were supposed To do.

00:13:23: the billing record show the damages, the amount that the breach of contract damaged you.

00:13:29: You submit all to a small claims court and let your attorney Tired themself out with all the reasons.

00:13:35: They don't think they should have had to pay.

00:13:36: this is unreasonable and these charges aren't right.

00:13:39: And there's treatment when it is unnecessary, you know stop talking.

00:13:42: eventually The judge goes counsel.

00:13:44: I'm looking at those.

00:13:44: lean on look at his contract and saying anything about any of that then say unless It's reasonable or unless its this yeah It just says at the end of the case You signed that?

00:13:52: You would pay them if they did the work.

00:13:54: they Did the work.

00:13:54: i see the records here See the bills.

00:13:56: why didn't she pay them and they Just get a judgment against him for the amount Of the medical bills.

00:14:01: it's like magic.

00:14:04: It is, but you do one of those and then y'all stand up a little taller.

00:14:11: the next time some PI turn he's trying to tell ya oh yeah I paid out that case!

00:14:15: You can go after the client if you want.

00:14:17: Nope?

00:14:18: I'm gonna go after you.

00:14:21: That

00:14:21: was very rare...I think i've had this happen maybe two or three times in many, many PI cases have done.

00:14:32: So it's a very rare occurrence but it is why you want to work with attorneys that you know or can actually get on the phone.

00:14:43: I think communication is also the big thing too.

00:14:50: If they're not willing to communicate with you, then They're probably not going to communicate when a case settles.

00:14:54: So make sure your keeping that dialogue open and whether it's you as a chiropractor or someone in Your team thats designated To be in that role That i think Is where u can get The most success

00:15:08: from them.

00:15:10: I mean, you're talking about our skunk test without talking about it.

00:15:15: Will they sign your lien?

00:15:16: Will they return your phone called?

00:15:18: will they send you all the insurance information photographs paperwork?

00:15:21: The only thing he didn't mention which i think is worth mentioning Is if you can get the attorney on the phone.

00:15:26: You might ask them who's your chiropractor And I like this because It's a little tongue-in-cheek right but also an Attorney whose older than thirty Who doesn't have one?

00:15:40: maybe they don't believe in it.

00:15:42: And if you don't belief the therapy that your either sending a patient to clients too or allowing them to rack up bills

00:15:51: at,

00:15:51: how likely are Prioritize paying those bills.

00:15:56: You know what I mean if you don't If you're not buying it, right?

00:15:59: It's your.

00:15:59: if you're Not like into acupuncture let's say you don' believe he does anything and then Your client racks up a big acupunctur bill.

00:16:06: well how incentivized are you gonna be to make sure that Acupunctures gets paid Like?

00:16:09: probably a lot less so than somebody who believes in it and thinks this legitimate.

00:16:12: So another little tell is That question?

00:16:17: the other pop into my head while you were talking too ahead of another case.

00:16:21: I forget How many years ago but The attorney, the patient is already a patient in the practice and they had an injury of some sort.

00:16:34: And um...the attorney was like very apprehensive about the chiropractor even though the patient was like no I want to go there for my care!

00:16:42: Like i've already been here..I wanna go these people ,i trust them....and then the attorney would be like mmmmmmmm....no.

00:16:50: So that patient ended up just paying out-of-pocket for their chiropractic piece of the case, and then just use that as back-end things.

00:17:01: We were like we're not going to do it on a lien if...

00:17:04: If the attorney won't

00:17:05: sign the lien?

00:17:06: Yeah they are not gonna play ball in the respective legal ball court.

00:17:11: Did you ever find out why this attorney was so apprehensive?

00:17:13: because there's couple reasons I can think of.

00:17:16: one is if they have their own arrangements with Chiropractors offices then sometimes they're really apprehensive about letting their clients treat with anybody that they don't have a pre-arranged arrangement.

00:17:30: Which by the way is illegal, that's fraud right?

00:17:32: If you have an understanding...

00:17:35: A wink, wink, nudge, nud.

00:17:36: Right!

00:17:37: That if they treat with you and rack up a five thousand dollar bill that attorney thing gets to use to justify increased settlement offer but than know automatic fifty percent reduction on every single case And thats just we, its an understating billing fraud, right?

00:17:51: To bill an amount of money you don't actually expect to get paid.

00:17:54: So that can happen.

00:17:56: and then also it could be what I was saying which is they just don't believe in it... Right!

00:18:00: And i think there's more than this particular case.

00:18:04: Which is unfortunate because now the patient has go through different means.

00:18:14: not how would want them take care?

00:18:19: So I'm impressed that in that case you managed to thread the needle between you still staying on as a chiropractor and the attorney, usually somebody gives.

00:18:31: Yeah it's unique situation.

00:18:33: so this is what we're gonna do if they wanted continue with his attorney then their prerogative...

00:18:44: Have ever had someone come ask like complain about their attorney and be, you know probably insert billboard attorney here.

00:18:50: but have you ever heard?

00:18:53: Have you ever had that situation where they come in there.

00:18:55: Like they won't answer the phone or they're not doing anything?

00:18:57: Yeah very rarely does it happen because again I try to really just work with attorneys that i have a good rapport

00:19:07: already having somebody and you have to decide if I'm either gonna just tell them no, am not working with you in that attorney or not.

00:19:13: Yeah i do...I've had that come up usually with the billboard-y ones.

00:19:20: um ...not all of them but like some of the bill board-y one's yeah patients are like oh they won't call me back ,they won't answer my texts where they just keep kind of like the case manager kinda blows him off type thing you know, we try and reach out to them as well.

00:19:36: And we may have a different email thread just trying get some touches on there.

00:19:40: but it does happen.

00:19:42: because also I find that weird.

00:19:47: You work for them.

00:19:48: Yeah, and it's contingent on the settlement And I worked for the patient.

00:19:52: yeah right like that's.

00:19:53: That's our.

00:19:55: Yes when its all working correctly It's great Our motives are all should be aligned correct?

00:19:59: Yeah, yes

00:20:00: Its amazing what is does.

00:20:01: but then you have these other These instances in your life.

00:20:05: Okay well i'm In here as a chiropractor doing your best to kind of Like Be professional But also like yeah like I Right not sure

00:20:15: one.

00:20:16: I'm sure you're getting Especially if you had anything to do with which attorney they went, too.

00:20:23: It's usually not the one that I feel.

00:20:25: Oh right!

00:20:25: I imagine not.

00:20:26: but there is a feeling of like now my reputations on line here and it happens in reverse.

00:20:33: all time we help some client The chiropractor will refer them for pain management.

00:20:40: so okay great Do have anyone know who would send him?

00:20:44: No We don't.

00:20:45: Who do you know?

00:20:46: that's pro chiropractic?

00:20:47: Well, we've got a list.

00:20:48: Okay We'll pick somebody on our lists.

00:20:50: That's you know.

00:20:51: the other people have had good experiences with.

00:20:53: but then if some client has A bad experience with them they usually come back to me and They're like I had to wait for two hours in their office And i'm like i don't work For them.

00:21:01: they don't worked for Me.

00:21:02: Like i can't call and reprimand them.

00:21:04: all i could Do is say i'm really sorry.

00:21:06: yeah You Know next time i'll downstab that person They won't get a referral from me.

00:21:11: But like you know what i mean it creates a weird situation.

00:21:14: Yeah, because when you're doing PI and really putting your reputation on the line like it's where you are referring to be different providers or different specialists.

00:21:26: So if a patient has negative experience I can't control lot of these things...I know they're good at what.

00:21:35: It's that like management expectation is always.

00:21:39: and do you?

00:21:40: Do you ever say a no as a valid answer, but do you ever Say well if you've had enough bad experiences with this person Like your free to change attorney.

00:21:51: Like you're not locked in You can switch.

00:21:54: Yeah I have.

00:21:55: I have had that conversation Again rarely maybe a handful of times And usually if I can, especially with someone that I've referred them to.

00:22:08: Then usually they phone the attorney and say

00:22:10: hey... If you made a referral?

00:22:11: Yeah!

00:22:12: This happens more when it's somebody they walked in with.

00:22:15: You don't know this person or heard of him.

00:22:17: We saw

00:22:18: this billboard Or we saw this

00:22:21: bench.

00:22:22: It still blows my mind That people are like well i dont have any good PI attorneys.

00:22:28: I guess ill take this bus benches.

00:22:30: word for it.

00:22:31: Imagine We're like, oh I have a cardiac issue.

00:22:36: Like I've got heart murmur... Yeah?

00:22:37: ...I need to go see a cardiologist.

00:22:39: do you know of any?

00:22:39: no i don't know if any but I saw billboard for what?

00:22:43: nobody would hire a cardiologists that way.

00:22:45: so much.

00:22:46: So they didn't even advertise on billboards.

00:22:48: You mean we don't

00:22:48: pick your chiropractor from Tik Tok ?

00:22:50: I dont'pick lots things from lot's places But it just blows my mind.

00:22:55: clearly it works or driven out freeway in California It is every other bill board now Yeah, um total tangent.

00:23:02: No I was asking about because it's delicate and i don't know if you've ever done It but yeah its delicate.

00:23:07: when somebody uh comes in with an attorney And You Know someone who maybe have never worked With so your like all right we'll give him a shot.

00:23:13: We try...and then Its very obvious that Like its not good situation and You Don't want to get yourself In trouble with the attorneys by being heavy-handed about them switching.

00:23:26: But on the other hand, I mean... The client has a right to switch and have the attorney that they want And you know from your much greater experience than the client has then They are entitled to a call back!

00:23:38: ...and they're entitled to an responsive email in there was....they shouldn't have to wait months To go see a specialist or whatever because some Attorney's office is just completely ignoring them.

00:23:47: so You like.

00:23:47: well..I wanna tell them they don't have do that.

00:23:53: Is that?

00:23:53: have you had this experience and like how do you navigate it?

00:23:56: Yeah, I mean your again.

00:23:57: It's a very...I'm trying to think maybe like a handful if not in my career.

00:24:10: You're right!

00:24:11: It is a delicate situation because you don't want tell them what to do necessarily but you wanna give the option.

00:24:22: Do this yeah, and same way if it was like the.

00:24:24: I know we're talking about Like The patient in the attorney relationship to but also you can have It with like.

00:24:28: You Know the specialist right?

00:24:30: Like you don't?

00:24:32: You Don't Have To go to like that one.

00:24:34: Yeah Right If it's not a good

00:24:36: But i'm i get to be A lot more heavy-handed About it.

00:24:38: They Call me And they Go.

00:24:40: I had to wait two hours In That person's waiting room, then I go screw them.

00:24:43: Yeah.

00:24:44: I'll set you up with a different person tomorrow like and i don't have...I don't run any risk of that doctor's office suing me for interfering with contractual relationship but if you tell the patient to fire their attorney and they do there is a delicate legal situation there You are allowed by the way to tell your patients That If Your Attorney Is Not Returning There phone calls that they have a right to have, and A. are allowed to switch attorneys in the middle of the case B., it won't cost them any money.

00:25:16: A lot of times don't realize that They think they'll owe their last guy money.

00:25:19: Doesn't work this way in real life.

00:25:21: The new attorney that takes over from the old attorney has to pay that old attorney out, add of whatever money they recover.

00:25:27: That would be their attorneys fee.

00:25:29: but the client's portion is sacrosancted.

00:25:31: doesn't change no matter how many attorneys you get although if you end up with more than a couple then people start having some questions.

00:25:38: yeah have

00:25:39: ever had that situation?

00:25:40: You like the attorney shopping client patient?

00:25:43: not

00:25:44: No, I had actually one.

00:25:45: that was the reversal.

00:25:46: It's um That they were with an attorney that they had used before and then they were like nah i'm gonna go With a different one and then picked like A billboard One And it Was Like i'm not.

00:26:00: i'm Not sure if that was The move.

00:26:02: i mean you're entitled to do whatever You want yeah?

00:26:03: Like you know.

00:26:04: i don't know If that was So

00:26:07: in our.

00:26:08: Yeah so In Our last five minutes i wanna i Want you To sort of just Last thoughts, but what?

00:26:16: What sorts of things do you wish you'd known?

00:26:18: I mean coming into PI?

00:26:19: granted You had your dad as kind of a backstop.

00:26:22: Yeah for Hey, what's happening here

00:26:25: or like this with weird or

00:26:26: something?

00:26:26: This seemed weird is it weird?

00:26:28: Oh no that's normal.

00:26:29: Or yeah That's definitely weird.

00:26:30: But like is there anything you wished you've known Coming in to PI that like you could go Back and tell younger you or young doctors that are listening To this they're like yeah, that's.

00:26:41: uh that's A great tip.

00:26:42: that's Something that i'll Definitely try to keep an eye out for.

00:26:47: Yeah, well the skunk test that Steele and I have is a really good one.

00:26:51: Oh

00:26:51: thank

00:26:52: you!

00:26:52: You're welcome.

00:26:52: That was it...I do go into a lot of view.

00:26:55: For saying that?

00:26:56: Um..

00:26:57: I do go through a lot other than taking education.

00:26:59: And i'm big fan of Alex because he does great work in his advocate at The Profession and always enjoy and respect um....his perspective.

00:27:08: That's very kind of you.

00:27:09: And I'm going to parlay that into something it is not quite so about me, which is continuing ed...is great!

00:27:16: is continuing education, which obviously you're obligated to do.

00:27:24: But there's Continuing Ed and then there's Continuing Ed And you can certainly go to PI-themed Continuing Education.

00:27:30: There's PI for all!

00:27:31: There are various PIs seminars.

00:27:33: Obviously my office puts on a number of them throughout the year.

00:27:36: I've been

00:27:36: to Steele & Eisner several times.

00:27:37: It was very good.

00:27:38: Again this isn't point in the podcast but i appreciate that plug.

00:27:46: Is there anything else though?

00:27:49: is a must and focusing on PI, strengthening that because laws change.

00:27:54: And things changed.

00:27:55: so but what else?

00:27:55: What else?

00:27:56: Because

00:27:58: your education it's great place to start like learning in getting more comfortable making sure you have the documents that you need cause there are little bit more documentation with PI.

00:28:12: It's different than just regular case management understanding you're not recreating or anything like that, but just understanding the forces a little bit better and having it being able to conceptualize out of a little before too.

00:28:27: then identify and treat.

00:28:30: The patient better.

00:28:31: where do you

00:28:32: get them?

00:28:33: We use an intake form that basically is check marks so easy for the patient.

00:28:38: to What position was your head and where you turned?

00:28:43: Do you have your children lap belt on, what were in the car.

00:28:46: So you got a PI intake, special PI intakes for them.

00:28:47: Yes, Special's PI Intake Auto Accident Questionnaire that we go through...what areas hurt immediately, what area started to hurt later?

00:28:57: some like past medical history but we had it our regular intake.

00:29:01: But there is more specific one specifically with PI.

00:29:04: so then helps kind of One, it gives the patient another space to like tell their story because that is there's a narrative associated with it.

00:29:13: I can't tell you how many times they're...I was turning to my right and i was saying X Y & Z And thats part of their total You know?

00:29:22: That's their story!

00:29:22: Thats' part otheir case.

00:29:23: So its important.

00:29:25: The patient can document for themselves and also good For me To Know so that I Can make sure Im treating these areas appropriately.

00:29:33: Like mechanism makes sense Right?

00:29:37: The other thing is, and some of this a little bit an experience component.

00:29:43: When you come out to school You have a lot knowledge And sometimes when your In certain instances This could be in PI and practice too That maybe doubt yourself A little or like I don't know.

00:29:58: Maybe you're intimidated The attorney's very flashy.

00:30:00: They go.

00:30:00: oh i dont know.

00:30:03: Yes Because you're really nice to talk about.

00:30:06: But, You have the knowledge To do this and be confident with your diagnosis Be confident With your treatment plan And as long As you are keeping The patient's best interest.

00:30:21: Um...and sometimes that is seeing you For the entirety of their case.

00:30:25: Sometimes thats referring out but having the confidence to know when to Do those things so That a patient gets the best result always gonna be the best way to approach it.

00:30:38: I really enjoy doing personal injury, i've done for about a decade now and we'll see... For all of my athletes that work on it which I love working with my athletes- I have marathon runners different types extreme athletes but PI is accessible too everyone because there are many more car accidents than they are elite athlete's.

00:31:01: and being confident in your skills, getting the education.

00:31:08: And always kind of fine-tuning that you're clinical mind will demonstrate itself when it comes to settle then have great PI friends be able do great work!

00:31:24: That was awesome.

00:31:26: I loved the piece about confidence because i think a lot...I was at a chiropractor's office last month and he was like, oh you know?

00:31:35: I've only been out of school year.

00:31:37: I haven't done an api

00:31:38: yet.".

00:31:38: And I said that's cool!

00:31:39: You know why

00:31:40: not?!

00:31:40: Why haven't you done any

00:31:40: api?".

00:31:41: Well they had a couple who came in.

00:31:43: there were existing patients after they'd been in accidents but I told them I didn't have all those things so I wasn't ready.

00:31:52: I said, well what things...I'm sitting in an office.

00:31:54: So it's like What Things Don't You Have?

00:31:56: I'm looking at a table computer and what else do you not have?

00:31:59: He didn't have medical record software or he didn't had some silver box with a wand coming out of him.

00:32:07: but i don't pretend to know all the stuff does

00:32:10: But..but

00:32:13: I was like you just need start doing that confidence because It will come And you'll realize your hands you know, a table or computer really all that you

00:32:25: need

00:32:26: to start doing this thing and building your confidence.

00:32:28: And realizing uh...that you can do this That You're Qualified To Do This.

00:32:32: Like I said come out of school with a lot knowledge but not yet A Lot Of Wisdom.

00:32:37: Attorneys Are The Exact Same Way.

00:32:38: Come Out With A Ton Of Knowledge And No Application Right?

00:32:41: Like We Know How To Apply This Knowledge.

00:32:44: Yes!

00:32:45: Um..And That Comes With Time It Comes With Experience.

00:32:47: But You Have Just Like Start Doing it.

00:32:50: But I think listening to things like this and going into continuing ed.

00:32:53: And just giving yourself a pep talk in the mirror before you have your first PI case that, Like i am qualified To do this...I Have A degree That allows me to Do This..And im gonna be okay at it!

00:33:03: And Im Gonna Make Mistakes but It'll Be Okay Because I'm The Quarterback Of Care Not The Only Person Providing Care.

00:33:12: I Think Is Another Thing That A Lot of Times Chiropractor Particularly New Ones They Start Getting You Know Protective Over Their Over Their Patience Like You're The Quarter Back the only provider.

00:33:21: Like you have a scope of practice, which is large but there are definitely moments for imaging and second opinions And unfortunately sometimes outside care by medical specialists who deal in drugs and surgeries injections that those things happen and aren't necessary.

00:33:38: Sometimes yeah But that confidence piece I mean That's a huge thing For people starting out.

00:33:44: they just don't.

00:33:46: They don't have it yet They can't get started until they have it.

00:33:52: It goes the other way around,

00:33:53: you

00:33:54: start to... It's

00:33:54: a muscle that you have to flex right?

00:33:56: That is right!

00:33:57: You need keep working out and it will get stronger.

00:34:02: Well doctor thank-you so much for doing this in your office here.

00:34:11: I'm very happy to have somebody willing to come on and talk about their early experience, but also Have you as a friend?

00:34:18: Yeah.

00:34:19: To come and cheer me on at all of our continuing in stuff which i invite everybody who's listening too.

00:34:24: Also Come and be absolutely a cheerleader And also learn a ton About PI.

00:34:29: Sean.

00:34:30: we'll will trot Sean out and have him Speak to his.

00:34:35: You know almost fifty years Of experience Which Dwarfs my experience by considerable margin, but we have a good time at these things.

00:34:43: Yeah

00:34:43: and it's great way to continue education because you need our licenses also get a lot of just applicable knowledge that you can take in use Monday.

00:34:55: That is right.

00:34:56: Thank You so much for being here.